tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post6808697079192854687..comments2023-11-05T12:28:46.375+00:00Comments on The Harbour of Ourselves: Hollywood Shoot-Up or Divine Art?The Harbour of Ourselveshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07718023812771923348noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-74365962244011906882007-05-03T17:22:00.000+01:002007-05-03T17:22:00.000+01:00Suzanna,i like your perspective - i am always rant...Suzanna,<BR/>i like your perspective - i am always ranting on about the power in brokenness - that the fragrance of calvary and gethsemene convince me more than pentecost of a god who not only loves me but likes me. I guess i am caught in a paradox - the one philip yancey talks of when he suggests that we are caught in the cosmic easter saturday....the day with no title <BR/><BR/>anna<BR/>am not sure i ever make sense - do any of us? I agree that the sacrifice made is a daily example - just not sure the film really reveals that fully (yet what can?) - it's out of context with his life and I'm not sure just showing us a shocking ending without some of that wonderful teaching and storytelling is helpful - that's why i think 'the last temptation' is much more helpful<BR/><BR/>mr t<BR/>a pleasure - will pass on to the mad welshman your kind reflections - i doubt very much ikon and billy will be playing the same time. maybe martin wroe could interview mel????<BR/><BR/>niki<BR/>nothing feeble about feeling like that - have never shyed (is that a word?) away from stuff like this but art should have dark and light - and there ain't much light in this....<BR/><BR/>dana<BR/>as ever you hit the mark...<BR/>'Yes, we can get lost in semantics, and far from me to ever jump on any politically correct bandwagon, but I think semantics feeds judgement and bias.....and inbalance.'<BR/>i can't add anything - just my 'hear hear' or 'amen'<BR/><BR/>christianne<BR/>i think you have some very valuable and articulate points here - there is both a mary and a martha in me and they jocky for position from time to time.<BR/><BR/>you have a very good point concerning ones agenda for putting work 'out there' - and maybe we should just judge them by those standards - i just can't get away from my gut feeling of slight agitation with work like this - i guess it really is a fine line between the two sometimes<BR/><BR/>Paris<BR/>i know what you mean - i have slightly gone off old mel and i can't quite put my finger on why - maybe it's, as suzanna says - he talketh too much.<BR/><BR/>i agree there is too much scary stuff around and i know we as followers of the wood man should be about redeeming that stuff rather than judging it - i just don't know how this film helps us do that....<BR/><BR/>BMM<BR/>thanks, am feeling much better thank you - i agree we should know what the cross was - i think martin penned that beautifully in his poem/prayer:<BR/>'did you know your lat supper was going to be your last supper,<BR/>a very bad friday would go down in history as a good friday.<BR/>you were about to create a more effective logo than coca cola,<BR/>and the most popular piece of jewellery in history..'<BR/>am all for that - just wished (as i think i have said too much now) he'd given us a bigger picture rather thank something far more polarised<BR/>Great comment tho, thank you<BR/><BR/>saint<BR/>very wise words my friend - try to do the same with my two - not an easy balance is it?<BR/><BR/><BR/>great conversation everyone - it's given me belief in blogging again....thank youThe Harbour of Ourselveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07718023812771923348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-84892906069712475362007-05-03T01:31:00.000+01:002007-05-03T01:31:00.000+01:00Transcendent. Mystery and family viewing are, in m...Transcendent. Mystery and family viewing are, in my house, synonymous. One degrades the mysteries of faith in making them a matter for affirmation or for negation, when they ought to be matters for contemplation. I try to get my young boys to talk and think on their own about it all the time. Tonight the last rays of sun at dustk caught their faces and that of their mother...The world's a stage, and God plays in ten thousand places, in the features of our faces. <BR/>Good to read you. Got to go.St. Kevin & the Blackbirdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02855128373769706263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-28765560659532974872007-05-02T16:16:00.000+01:002007-05-02T16:16:00.000+01:00oh.... and i hope you are feeling better! :)oh.... and i hope you are feeling better! :)bluemountainmamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04297693762079368522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-4049953022259991772007-05-02T16:15:00.000+01:002007-05-02T16:15:00.000+01:00i think my thoughts are similar to anna's. i did s...i think my thoughts are similar to anna's. i did see the film in the theatre...... and i was heartbroken and wept uncontrollably at what my saviour endured for me.<BR/><BR/>i think the cross has become such a symbol and we are so apathetic toward it that we forget what it REALLY was.... not just a little charm to grace our neck or hang on our wall.<BR/><BR/>but i agree that some people don't need to see all the gory details to understand what Jesus endured. and yes, we need to focus on the Resurrection too, because without that, we wouldn't have Christianity as we know it. Jesus would just be another teacher who eventually died.<BR/><BR/>i don't even pretend to know what mel's intentions were or feel qualified to comment on them. i do agree with your sentiments about art and culture, though. and i detest the fact that we feel everything needs to be categorized and labeled.......bluemountainmamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04297693762079368522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-48464147577336752602007-05-02T13:33:00.000+01:002007-05-02T13:33:00.000+01:00I haven't seen it, because I don't like Mel Gibson...I haven't seen it, because I don't like Mel Gibson and I heard about the violence seemingly just for violence's sake. Although I suppose I should watch it, to know what all the fuss is about. But I don't need any more depressing sagas at the moment - real life is scary enough.paris parfaithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05457437124988976587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-57604637347587159322007-05-02T08:19:00.000+01:002007-05-02T08:19:00.000+01:00am loving the dialogue - some profound and interes...am loving the dialogue - some profound and interesting points that I will join in with later - running out the door and want to do these comments justice<BR/><BR/>thank youThe Harbour of Ourselveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07718023812771923348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-22413210253589523952007-05-02T03:54:00.000+01:002007-05-02T03:54:00.000+01:00These are all great thoughts, and I feel completel...These are all great thoughts, and I feel completely out of my depth to respond adequately . . . so much in my mind and heart has changed in recent years; whereas I would once have jumped into a conversation like this with aplomb, I don't seem to have the heart for it much anymore.<BR/><BR/>That said, I still value very much the road you're walking here in this discussion. You are doing it marvelously well, from this onlooker's side of the fence. <BR/><BR/>I used to want to be a critic and a teacher who would help students get what a piece of literature was supposed to mean. Anymore these days, I'm beginning to finally "get" that art isn't meant to be dissected. This is where I am beginning to agree with your position here. Thanks for articulating it so well for me; I couldn't have done that on my own, so you connected the dots. <BR/><BR/>One last thought: I wonder if Gibson even intended the Passion film to be considered as a contribution to the artistic form of film . . . or whether he meant it to evangelize or make a message in some way. (I haven't read or heard much on this because, like many others here, he kinda wigged me out at that point in time. But I did go see the film twice.)<BR/><BR/>My point is this: If someone doesn't mean for something to be art but instead for it to be something with a message, can we fault them for that? Shouldn't we then just take it for what they meant it to be and evaluate it according to those standards?<BR/><BR/>Your comment on whether it taught us much about how to live was very revealing. I think you pinned my own conceptual, no-words-for-it take on the film right there -- but again, I couldn't have done it myself. You did it for me. Thank you!christiannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06278757714101308785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-40360119313976588032007-05-01T22:01:00.000+01:002007-05-01T22:01:00.000+01:00Hey Niki......I'm with you. Not feeble at all........Hey Niki......I'm with you. Not feeble at all.....just a different opinion....... :) <BR/><BR/>I had a complete aversion to seeing it when it came out because the hype was so outrageous....perhaps that's the rebel in me. I'm not one to fall in line. I also am not good with graphic details. I'd rather leave it to my imagination. Like Mister Tumnus stated...the horror in my imagination is enough.<BR/><BR/>I am able to learn and read and discuss His sacrifice and not have to see the movie. The book I'm reading right now, Gospel, is case in point.......learning about the gruesome martyr deaths.....the words are powerful enough. I can't imagine the the stark imagery in front of me.<BR/><BR/>Your point too Paul about the film showing us how he died rather than live speaks volumes to me.<BR/><BR/>as well.......labels when one aspect of oneself is so pronounced drive me batty. I may be a female (well actually I am most definately a female) and I may be a writer (well I try to be) but does that mean that I have to state I'm a female writer?<BR/><BR/>A disabled teacher? <BR/><BR/>A homosexual singer?<BR/><BR/>What is that?<BR/><BR/>Yes, we can get lost in semantics, and far from me to ever jump on any politically correct bandwagon, but I think semantics feeds judgement and bias.....and inbalance.<BR/><BR/>ps. Billy Bragg? Would love to see Billy Bragg.<BR/><BR/>Great comments.......LOVE reading this.....awarenesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06098432781380754899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-53972639953110858232007-05-01T21:38:00.000+01:002007-05-01T21:38:00.000+01:00I don't think I could watch that film, feeble as i...I don't think I could watch that film, feeble as it sounds to admit it.Nikitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17929639297231842691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-60128824037323969252007-05-01T20:20:00.000+01:002007-05-01T20:20:00.000+01:00hey paul, yes please do pass on my admiration! i a...hey paul, yes please do pass on my admiration! i am grateful for artists like martyn joseph. and soooo looking forward to seeing billy bragg at gb!! ikon better not be rivalling that gig.<BR/><BR/>P.S. your encouragement continues to mean an awful lot to me. in all honesty i think i wouldn't have a blog now if you hadn't encouraged me to keep it going a while back. i owe you at least a pint...mister tumnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267299982613022432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-50143925723141684562007-05-01T19:18:00.000+01:002007-05-01T19:18:00.000+01:00I am so NOT eloquent...I am going to try to commen...I am so NOT eloquent...I am going to try to comment anyway...<BR/><BR/>I feel much like Suzanna Paul. <BR/><BR/>I saw this movie once. Once was enough. I felt quite compelled to see it as well and it left me in complete silence....heartbroken. Then my thoughts turned to my Savior and how on that day, he broke his heart willingly so ours would never be completely broken again. <BR/><BR/>I was so grateful.<BR/><BR/>I do think that on some levels Paul, the movie is teaching us how to live...and love. Throughout the movie, I did see examples of it when it was clearly not the popular thing to do or the most comfortable. And His sacrifice alone should be a lesson on how I should be...everyday.<BR/><BR/>I dont even think I am making sense.... :)Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06195783449222301031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-72542297796526382022007-05-01T17:38:00.000+01:002007-05-01T17:38:00.000+01:00part of the contrast for the early church was that...part of the contrast for the early church was that the Lord died not only a horrible death but such a shameful death, one meant for the dregs of society, as so the Romans worked it -hardly something that a film could capture.<BR/><BR/>The power of the gospel seems to me to be the resurrection. Another good prophet died? That happens all the time. But life? Again? After all the torture of watching Jesus' death, I felt so bereft of not experiencing his life.<BR/>-which in itself had me drawing closely in prayer for months afterward. Not a bad result for me from a film I felt compelled to see, such as the hype and tide of my community. <BR/>Have I ever watched it again? Never.<BR/>But poor Mel-he doth speak too much...Suzannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659076782219331925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-17524969915417137832007-05-01T15:31:00.000+01:002007-05-01T15:31:00.000+01:00that he is....i will pass on your compliments ps, ...that he is....i will pass on your compliments <BR/><BR/>ps, you write so eloquentlyThe Harbour of Ourselveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07718023812771923348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-31632639839603158932007-05-01T13:49:00.000+01:002007-05-01T13:49:00.000+01:00yeh,we do agree. you can't get much better than a ...yeh,we do agree. you can't get much better than a guernica, is all i think i meant. 'every good and perfect gift...' and all that stuff. the quoting sir cliff was tongue in cheek but i think he had a point. when i was growing up it was the common assumption that unless art was trying to make converts it couldn't be considered christian. what bothers me most about that assumption is (not just that it's a load of crap) but that it presumes to know what effect any particular piece of art has on any person at any time. it's so reductionist and insulting (not just to the artist or to art in general, but to humanity in general, i think). so when people say that martyn joseph could not be 'christian' because he said a naughty word at greenbelt last year they are missing the point on so many diferent levels that it makes me want to weep. he's such a great writer and performer.mister tumnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267299982613022432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-63529795774618970382007-05-01T10:30:00.000+01:002007-05-01T10:30:00.000+01:00hey mr t - it is quite graphic, and my intention i...hey mr t - it is quite graphic, and my intention is not to take anything away from the reality of just how horrific crucifixion rather that although the film shows us how he died, it doesn't really teach us how to live<BR/><BR/>'guernica' is an amazing work - Picasso was a remarkable artist<BR/><BR/>am not sure if we are slightly at odds over the christian thing or not ( i don't think so, I mean how can we not concure with Saint Cliff?). Martyn Jospeh got quite animated a few years ago when he was introduced as a christian folk singer - he said he was a singer songwriter who just happened to be a christian.<BR/><BR/>it may be just be semantics if indeed all creativeness is a gift and/or inspired by the almighty. I guess for me it feels as tho art has been hijacked somewhat when we call it 'christian'<BR/><BR/>hope all is well there in the fast bel<BR/><BR/>ps, am now singing devil woman in my head!!!!The Harbour of Ourselveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07718023812771923348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20973277.post-54806316641041777872007-05-01T10:14:00.000+01:002007-05-01T10:14:00.000+01:00yeh, i'm going to be avoiding the mel gibson i thi...yeh, i'm going to be avoiding the mel gibson i think! i an imagine the horror, that's enough!<BR/><BR/>think ridell speaks amazing well on art and writing. i've been fortunate enough to see some amazing paintings close up ('guernica' comes to mind) and i'm not sure how anyone looking at something like that could say that it wasn't 'christian'. as the patron saint of christian art, sir cliff richard, once said 'nothing is secular but sin'.mister tumnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267299982613022432noreply@blogger.com